Comments on The Chronicles of Kashik: The Tower of Babel: A Lesson for Greatness

"It seems like man is supposed to be powerful, so ...

2009-10-04T23:01:48.445-04:00

"It seems like man is supposed to be powerful, so why would becoming powerful be the issue?"

It isn't that being powerful is the issue. It is that we are not recognizing that our power is dependant on God.

I wish I could remember the reasoning for viewing ...

2009-10-04T22:59:42.699-04:00

I wish I could remember the reasoning for viewing Ham's sin as one of incest, but I can't. I only remember it was a credible source (which I know doesn't help you, but that is all I have). In either case, the act of telling his brothers about it at least seems plausible as an act of direspect in the least and of usurping his father in the most extreme.

"It took God, who is omnipotent, six days, according to Genesis. Seems like it was difficult."

To be fair, are you honestly going to acknowledge that some passages in scripture are metaphorical and then exclude that possibility for the 6 day creation?

Furthermore, if "difficulty" cannot be applied to God and yet His actions are great I think that proves my point that great things need not be difficult. The only thing I can imagine is that you mean something like "for humans, only difficult things can be great."

This would mean God and any other creature (capable of greatness)can do great things which are not difficult while humans can only do great things if those things are also difficult. I don't really see any reason to think this. Granted, difficult things make a better story. They are perhaps more astounding. I don't think greatness has bearing here though.

"Why doesn't God simply say that?"

"The problem is therefore quite old. But it has been accentuated with the passage of time. Readers today, in order to appropriate the words and deeds of which the Bible speaks, have to project themselves back almost 20 or 30 centuries—a process which always creates difficulty. " THe Interpretation of the Bible in the Church.

Maybe He did. There are many things in scripture which would have been readily understood at the time, but which loose meaning now unless we carefully study the text, culture and time.

"And why is God so inconsistent? When the people of Babel seek to reach the heavens, God stymies their efforts and makes it so that they can't seek to reach the heavens. When Adam and Eve, though, gain the knowledge of good and evil, God casts them out of Eden but allows them to keep the knowledge."

The punishments don't appear very different to me. He cursed the land and made Adam toil. He increased Eve's pain at childbirth. Both significantly hampered the growth of society as confusing our language would.

Yes, Adam and Eve kept their "knowledge", but that knowledge was not only of what evil was, but that they participated in it. If God removed that knowledge He would essentially be denying that the first sin took place and thus lying. Something bad happened. Adam and Eve had to live with that.

You know, you may also want to get a good concordance. Basically, it goes through line by line and lets you know if there is anything special about the text that might shed some light on it. Navarre is good (though pricey sometimes). Collegevile is a good cheap one too. You can get one for a few bucks at "In His Name" bookstore in Raleigh for whatever book of the bible you want.

If you google "Strong's concordance and lexicon" you can get a neat online search engine which will not only give you the occurences of any word you search in the bible, but also the original word used and its deffinition.

Oh yeah, one more thing. "The Consuming Fire." It is a great book on the history behind the old testament. I used it for graduate work. I think it is out of print, but you might be able to find it on Amazon or contact Franciscan University and get a cheap photocopied version (well worth the effort).

"the Historical-Critical method" Thanks! I'll loo...

2009-10-04T22:17:29.214-04:00

"the Historical-Critical method"

Thanks! I'll look into it.

""the nakedness which was his father's""

That's kind of stretching, I think. Besides, that doesn't explain why Noah curses the son (and so forth) of the incestuous one, rather than the incestuous one himself. And why would seeing his mother naked imply that he leapt into bed with her? Normally Genesis uses the word "know" to imply sexual conference.

I think that's an explanation that's been conjured to explain something that makes no sense, frankly. It would be helpful to find someone that reads Hebrew, I guess.

"Secondly, I would reject the idea that only difficult things are great. Afterall, creation was great, though certainly not difficult, right? (I think we have centuries of poetry and human thought behind us on that.)"

It took God, who is omnipotent, six days, according to Genesis. Seems like it was difficult.

Also (to be less glib), I think difficulty is not a concept that can apply to an omnipotent being. Doing anything is neither difficult nor easy for God. It simply is when He wants it to be.

"Instead, could it be that in seeking to reach heaven by their own power the humans were attmpting once again to "be like God, knowing what is good and what is evil.""

I have to admit that it's possible, but it makes me ask something that comes up a lot for me in the Bible. Why doesn't God simply say that? And why does he act so inconsistently?

Rather than simply saying that man was encroaching on His turf, He says, "and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do," and then he confounds the tongues of man. There are overtones of omnipotence there, true, at least as a collective, but not of omniscience. It is only what man can imagine that they can achieve. That leaves them far, far short of God, though it does mean that they will become more powerful than they were before. That doesn't seem like an issue, though.

After all, God instructs Adam and his descendants and several members of the Abrahamic line to "be fruitful and multiply," and thus to fill the Earth with people of one tongue and one will. Additionally, He tells Adam to "replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." It seems like man is supposed to be powerful, so why would becoming powerful be the issue?

And why is God so inconsistent? When the people of Babel seek to reach the heavens, God stymies their efforts and makes it so that they can't seek to reach the heavens. When Adam and Eve, though, gain the knowledge of good and evil, God casts them out of Eden but allows them to keep the knowledge. He could have simply wiped the knowledge from them (omnipotent, after all) or killed them and started over. Why, then, is He so capricious with His punishments if they are essentially the same crime?

~Michael

Interesting. You might want to read up on the Hist...

2009-10-04T21:46:28.964-04:00

Interesting. You might want to read up on the Historical-Critical method of reading scripture. It is approved and promoted by the Catholics and seems to encompass the way you view scripture. It is a great tool.

A few points, though, if I may.

First, Ham probably didn't see his father naked. I mean, wouldn't that have been sort of a silly reason to curse someone? Instead, "His fathers nakedness" probably means "the nakedness which was his father's" ie: Noah's wife. Yeah, thats right. Little usurper slept with his mom. Disgusting? Yes. Worthy of a curse? At least more than seeing your drunk naked dad, right?

Secondly, I think you are missing another possibility in the tower of babel story. You seem to think that it is either God not wanting us to succeed or God purposely making things difficult because only difficult things are great.

First, I think we both know the first possibility you listed is improbable. Why would God not want us to succeed and be prosperous?

Secondly, I would reject the idea that only difficult things are great. Afterall, creation was great, though certainly not difficult, right? (I think we have centuries of poetry and human thought behind us on that.)

I will agree that great things are often difficult, but it isn't a necessary condition of greatness (though perhaps of heroism which is different).

Instead, could it be that in seeking to reach heaven by their own power the humans were attmpting once again to "be like God, knowing what is good and what is evil." In essence, they were committing the same sin of pride as Adam and Eve and had to be humbled so that they could recognize their need for God.

In that case, God was lovingly teaching a lesson and not acting from some sadistic urge.

What an interesting way to view that story. It's ...

2009-09-20T01:23:31.690-04:00

What an interesting way to view that story. It's far more encompassing and, well, helpful than it simply being a story of God feeling threatened by progress.